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  • Citizen 856948543/923, your card has been declined...




    "...on the fiscal side, the most worrying thing that's happening right now is really on the financial end; the fact that sites that are essentially the internet version of banks would be picking and choosing who to do business with for reasons unrelated to criminal behaviour is frightening. It's frightening that people have any tolerance for this."


    I kinda touched on this subject recently with the systematic unpersoning of Alex Jones, not because I liked the guy or agreed with much of what he has to say but because of the precedent it establishes in a world that is increasingly reliant on e-commerce. The idea that anyone can find themselves on the outer of a fascistic establishment masquerading as liberalism, purely on a whim and with no recourse for their day in court is not conducive to a society where the free expression of ideas and ideals as provided for in the constitutions of so called civilized countries.


    Now it was expressed at the time that it was perfectly fine that this sort of thing is okay because of the person it is currently happening to. Ultimately this line of argument was dropped, ostensibly under the premise that neither I nor my opponent were ever going to convince the other of the veracity of their arguments. The thing is, I wasn't coming out in support of Alex Jones for Alex Jones' sake, but for all our sakes.


    Consider if this were to happen to any of you. Finding yourself shut out of any ability to function in society because you weren't allowed to receive or make payments, effectively stripped of your station in life and cast off into the underclass simply because someone could do it to you and enjoyed enough support from the mob to make any reason they invented for their action stick. "Couldn't ever happen to me"? How do you know? The precedent has already been set by the oligarchy here, the political system is perfectly happy to allow it to happen due to the close working arrangement they have with Silicon Valley being an effective workaround for the first amendment. "I'm not big enough for them to worry about"? Maybe so, but is that going to be any consolation if someone who is worrying about you manages to lobby someone in that crowd? You may very well find yourself swatted into insignificance and unable to pick yourself up because you're not big enough to worry about.


    Taking this one step fuhrer... what happens should this paradigm find itself under the governance of someone you really hate? Someone who genuinely behaves as a nazi bigot for example and not the watered down and sanitized version the Neo-liberals are presently trying to convince us is the worst person in the world? Or better yet; this paradigm is sold off to the highest bidders? I invite you to revisit senator Joe McCarthy's efforts of the 1950's and the lives and reputations of those unfortunates it ruined... and those are just the people you got to hear about. There were hordes more... little people like you and I... who had their lives completely disrupted over something as trivial as a disagreement with the next door neightbour.


    We are effectively on the cusp of that now and I don't see a lot of people pushing back against it. It will prove to be our undoing. Thoughts?



  • #2
    Nobody is entitled to the services of any private company.
    If Alex Jones had taken up painting (let's be generous and say watercolors even though I'm pretty sure he'd be using only primary colors and slopping them onto the canvas with his fingers) but his technique was subpar and most of his paintings disturbingly appeared to garishly depict war and/or armageddon type themes half-covered with advertising for prepper and survivalist products... he may garner a few devoted fans but is that enough to start demanding studios display his products even if they don't want to be associated with such violent imagery and blatant self-serving commercialism?

    I say not.
    "He's not evil; he's just a bit rude." -Graeme

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Vitriol View Post
      Nobody is entitled to the services of any private company.
      If Alex Jones had taken up painting (let's be generous and say watercolors even though I'm pretty sure he'd be using only primary colors and slopping them onto the canvas with his fingers) but his technique was subpar and most of his paintings disturbingly appeared to garishly depict war and/or armageddon type themes half-covered with advertising for prepper and survivalist products... he may garner a few devoted fans but is that enough to start demanding studios display his products even if they don't want to be associated with such violent imagery and blatant self-serving commercialism?

      I say not.
      That's your view of Alex Jones... you're entitled to it and you can tune out and never buy his super prepper cotton candy flavoured and dehydrated iodine with b complex vitamins and the tears of progressive rainbow warrior basement moles...

      ...however, if online media and payment processing industries unite to prevent Alex Jones or anybody else their slant of politics disagrees with in order to silence and financially barricade, these companies are practicing censorship in concert on a grand scale which cannot be easily worked around due to the vast reach of Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, Google's search engine, Paypal, and potentially other institutions such as Mastercard and Visa (if they haven't already done so).

      Remember that Rosa Parks refused to sit at the back of the bus... there were public and private buses all operating at the same time. It didn't matter which kind of bus she was on when she said enough was enough. It was wrong. She started the discussion.

      Comment


      • #4
        You act like Jones has one and only one way to make money so interfering with that is tantamount to starving him.
        Bullshit.
        If peddling snake oil bottled in conspiracy theories isn't working out for him anymore let him go out and get an actual job like most everyone else.
        I don't care how badly he or anyone else wants to be a doom-n-gloom prophet for profit that doesn't entitle him to a platform operated by a private company; especially a company that just wants to push him away with a sharp stick.
        "He's not evil; he's just a bit rude." -Graeme

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Vitriol View Post
          You act like Jones has one and only one way to make money so interfering with that is tantamount to starving him.
          Bullshit.
          If peddling snake oil bottled in conspiracy theories isn't working out for him anymore let him go out and get an actual job like most everyone else.
          I don't care how badly he or anyone else wants to be a doom-n-gloom prophet for profit that doesn't entitle him to a platform operated by a private company; especially a company that just wants to push him away with a sharp stick.
          That's again your opinion and you're entitled to it.

          However, millions of people in the US and abroad as well tune into him and believe in his products. THEY ARE ALSO ENTITLED TO THEIR OPINIONS...

          The Federal Reserve is a private company. Would you also suggest that personal and bank checks, wire transfers through SWIFT and IBAN, and DHL, Western Union, Moneygram and the rest can be delayed or rejected because they're private companies?

          For someone who pretends to be all in on the marketplace of ideas and commerce, you do a shit job trying to back it up....though you're totally entitled to your Progressive opinions on who you disagree with and believe should be censored.... just try to be bloody well consistent about it across the whole slew of opinions against yours and don't pole jockey that horse across the finish line because you think your views deserve to add rocks into your opposition's saddlebags...

          Comment


          • #6
            Why doesn't Jones start his own media company, streaming web platform, or what have you?
            Why does he insist on being allowed to pollute the platforms of companies who have unequivocally declared him too odious to bear?

            If he has so much support surely it's something he could easily do.
            "He's not evil; he's just a bit rude." -Graeme

            Comment


            • #7
              You use the word "pollute". That is your opinion and you're entitled to it. Millions of others have a far different opinion, right or wrong, and they find the advocating of censure based on differences of opinion to be an assault on free speech and the marketplace of ideas. AT&T got broke up for predatory behaviour in the so called free market. Why can't Alphabet get the same?

              Comment


              • #8
                You keep saying he's being "censured based on difference of opinion" but that's misleading.
                They didn't remove his account(s) because he has a particular political philosophy... they removed him because the content of his posts/videos violated their terms of service so egregiously that booting him was not only justifiable but necessary.

                Trying to make it about "but his difference of opinion!" is a dodge and unworthy of rational debate.
                "He's not evil; he's just a bit rude." -Graeme

                Comment


                • Madcow Klitzgasm
                  Madcow Klitzgasm commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Righteo, I can see that you you're uninterested in fairness when it comes to those you dislike. Carry on.

                • The Hypnotoad
                  The Hypnotoad commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Originally posted by Vitriol View Post
                  You keep saying he's being ''censured based on difference of opinion'' but that's misleading.
                  They didn't remove his account(s) because he has a particular political philosophy... they removed him because the content of his posts/videos violated their terms of service so egregiously that booting him was not only justifiable but necessary.
                  Actually, that's wrong too. You cannot reasonably show how his posts and videos violated Paypal's terms of service and I'm not even going to invite you to try.


                  This is about control. Nothing more, nothing less. Similar character assassinations and subsequent depersonings were attempted against various other independent content creators and if the moral panics of yesteryear have told us anything, this will not be confined simply to that arena, much less any particular subsection thereof...or have you forgotten how PewDiePie was cast as a nazi by that WSJ hit piece?


                  Three days ago, James Woods got knocked off Twitter for posting the following meme...



                  ...and get this; Twitter's current official reason, laughable as it is, is because it has the potential to affect the outcome of the US midterm elections. Which, in case you were wondering, is not against their terms of service and quite frankly, if people are truly stupid enough to let a satirical meme decide for them whether or not to turn up to a ballot box then perhaps they shouldn't be voting anyway.


                  But wait... it gets better. Check this lot from yesterday out and ask yourself this: do you really honestly believe there is nothing in your posting history throughout your last quarter of a century online that could not be cast as ''dehumanizing'' if anyone truly cared enough to use it as a whipping rod against you? I can already think of one thing you've written... the Yoyo piece. If Twitter expands their their ToS to include ''dehumanizing speech'', then what?


                  Well, we already know the answer to that, don't we? Every last one of us here, along with pretty much anyone we've ever associated, is on blast. It's not like you have to have put it out on Twitter, not if their official reason for kicking out Alex Jones because ''he spoke to a senator in public'' is any guide to just how wide a scope they like to apply their reasoning to. And we also know that these days an unproven accusation is all it takes to stop someone dead in their tracks (#believeher, #metoo et al) and that all their powerful corporate friends will fall into lockstep as and when they think the situation warrants it. Absolute power corrupts absolutely and you and I enjoy three tenths of fuck all power for as long as we sit on our hands and do buttfuck nothing about it.


                  So sure, focus on Alex Jones all you like, focus on the next whipping boy that is offered up for us (and the next and the next and the next) and see how long you can go arguing that the cartels of Silicon Valley and big business have the right to destroy anyone they choose via brigading and banishment from the public square. Eventually they'll get around to targeting someone you do care about.


                  Hopefully the corruption is not so entrenched by then that you are incapable of finding support to assist you in pushing back against it.


                  But I doubt it.

              • #9
                The SPLC has a list of "hate groups" which include groups who think gay marriage is wrong and amazon ect use those lists to deny them use of the charity amazon smile program and paypal will deny paypal accounts to people on that list too. So if you disagree with some group just complain enough paypal and others just take away their ability to accpet credit cards online and basically put them out of buisiness

                if you cant use paypal on alex jones site to buy that caveman bone broth cause paypal has decided to listen to the mob calling for it to censor alex jones, lots of people wont be able to get their caveman bone broth

                can we not buy and sell unless we have the mark of the beast?

                Comment


                • #10
                  Originally posted by Regan Macneil View Post
                  if you cant use paypal on alex jones site to buy that caveman bone broth cause paypal has decided to listen to the mob calling for it to censor alex jones, lots of people wont be able to get their caveman bone broth
                  Cut out the middlemadman and buy it straight from the company that makes the stuff.
                  Or is that "censuring" poor little Alex too?
                  "He's not evil; he's just a bit rude." -Graeme

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    He can go full bit coin and everyone is happy...

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      I see this has been hijacked off topic into a discussion on how it relates to Alex Jones specifically. Clearly such a discussion is infinitely more palatable than addressing the central thrust of the OP... namely how it can (and likely will) eventually be applied to others.


                      Yourselves for instance.


                      Might I gather from this state of affairs that each and every one of you is perfectly fine with waking up tomorrow and finding yourself effectively locked out of society on a whim then? Completely unable to use any of the facilities you take fro granted today "because private companies (monopolies) are not obligated to avail you of their services"? No banks, no utilities, no right to work to pay your way.... that sort of thing? In effect... "perpetual punishment for Wrongthink... or less"?


                      I wonder what the people who wrote the Magna Carta would have to say about this.


                      Comment


                      • #13
                        Locked out of society? Seriously... society?!?
                        This is Facebook and Twitter we're talking about. They're "society" the same way TacoBell is nutrition; a subset at best and even that is highly debatable.
                        If my connection to humanity was confined to Facebook and Twitter then starving me to death would actually be a mercy. Sheesh.
                        "He's not evil; he's just a bit rude." -Graeme

                        Comment


                        • #14
                          Originally posted by Vitriol View Post
                          Locked out of society? Seriously... society?!?

                          This is Facebook and Twitter we're talking about.
                          Again, this is BANKING we are talking about, you crosseyed cockfisting jerkoff. Ohh, I know you want to steer this into a debate on Facebook and Twitter and confine it thereto, I pretty much knew from our last discussions together of your tendency to simper and fawn to the establishment like a meek little yes-boy. Fuck your garbage about being an independent voter if that's the case, you're coming across as mindlessly partisan as lokmar and quite frankly that guy is a cunt. If you want to be a cunt along with him, then be my guest. Your connection to humanity is defined by how effectively you are able to interact with it. If you cannot make bank, that's a pretty large handicap on your ability to interact with society on a meaningful level past "buddy can you spare a dime" and like it or lump it, our society has been going cashless for quite some time now.


                          If only it were Facebook and Twitter... but it's not. It's got its hooks into the financial sector... the VERY reason I started this thread and the intended topic for discussion. What, you expect me to go and start a fresh thread to discuss that aspect of it? So you can jack that off topic too? Fuck you Vit, you're supposed to be better than this, but apparently you've got such a woodie for fucking over people of different political persuasions that you never got smart enough to say "wait a moment... if what's happening to them would be odious if it were happening to me, therefore I should probably support them in this fight even though I'll be damned if I support them in any other". In this instance, their fight is your fight and you're just gonna wag your tail as long as the boots are kicking some other dog in the pack?


                          Together we stand, divided we fall. Exercise your intellect... and your options... wisely... you asshole.


                          Comment


                          • #15
                            Again... why do you assume Alex can ONLY make money via Paypal or whatever?
                            What's so special about Alex that he should be entitled to use that privately-owned service whether or not they want him as a client?
                            Are you arguing we should regard Paypal, Facebook, Twitter, etc. as public utilities and fold them into the already bloated government bureaucratic morass?
                            Either they are private entities and control their own disposition of acceptable/unacceptable clientele or they're not.

                            You're starting to sound like a champion for socialism. Lulz
                            "He's not evil; he's just a bit rude." -Graeme

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